March 23, 2025
NA: Danette, again, thank you for doing this. It’s good to see you. I sure appreciate the—what— four hours, three or four, maybe five hours we’ve been talking. You’ve been enlightening me about the history of the Board of Trustees, the office, and the early days of N.A. in Southern California. My last few questions would just be general questions about your time working in the office—what you did for fun—and maybe some insight into how the office became more of a part of the instrument, the literature development, and that type of thing, you know, during your time there and who was in charge. I should probably just let you go and let’s hear your final words on all of that stuff. Again, thanks for doing this.
Danette: Oh, you’re very welcome. It’s been wonderful getting to know you.I look forward to actually being able to participate in some of your interviews with other people that we’re going to line up. So, let’s see here. My final words…
I think we’ve kind of covered my timeline as far as getting involved with World Services. I guess it was because I was just involved with service all along—and all of us were back then. It was a much smaller, very much smaller, population of people. We didn’t hang out, but we kind of knew each other—or at least knew of each other—in Southern California, and a lot in Northern California, too, because there was that migration from Southern California up to the San Jose area and beyond. The way I got into formal service at World Services was because Bob Stewart, who was the Southern California RSR, contacted me, and I started as the alternate for Southern California. Whoever his alternate was, I don’t remember, had been unable to complete the alternate term. Then I continued on and became the RSR, or as they now call it, a delegate. (And, you know, I don’t understand— not just in N.A., but in the world—why they have to keep changing the names of things. They never seem to really improve. But anyways, whatever—that’s old fogey stuff.) From that point, I got recognized by everybody at the World Service Conference, obviously. Southern California was “where it all started”, (specifically the San Fernando Valley which is technically part of the City of Los Angeles but completely different from that L.A. proper), so it seemed to carry extra weight with a lot of people. As we talk about in our traditions, that extra weight is a responsibility. The way I was raised, it needs to be taken seriously and practiced with humility, always remembering why I’m there: to help carry the message to the still-suffering addict—not just those who haven’t arrived, but those who are already in the room and still suffering. Bob Stewart had the same upbringing in N.A. service, and we made a great team. He’s a great person.
I finished that term… and there’s some fuzziness there about the sequencing of time for me, which I’m not really good at, but Bob Stone had become the WSC parliamentarian during that time. He got to know a lot of people in N.A. very well during that time – watching and assessing who were the movers and shakers—who carries weight, who people listen to, who seem to be leaders. As things progressed and the conference, the board, and whoever was involved in moving Jimmy out of the office and putting Bob Stone in, they also wanted an audit of the WSO financial statement from Jimmy’s last report (I think that’s where that report cam from). We’ve gone over a lot of this already, but Bob Stone asked me to do the audit because I was doing bookkeeping, tax prep, and accounting at that time. So, I did that. And soon after, he asked me to be the first “Project Coordinator,” which is a commonly used term on organizational charts. So, I was the first Project Coordinator at the World Service Office. Vida and somebody else were already there working in the warehouse, responding to literature orders ( i thin the other person was Freddy). There were maybe four employees total then. I think Bob hired his assistant right away too and maybe someone was there answering phones at that time. And there we were. Bob was getting the office in order to best serve the fellowship, coming from a non-addict perspective but with a plan. Shortly thereafter, Stone hired Bob
Stewart and he & I were back together in N.A. world services, we shared office at the World Service Office. I found out recently that Ron Hofius had been hired just before Bob Stewart and was working remotely for several months.
NA: on Wyandotte Street?
Danette: Correct.
NA: Okay.
Danette: And it went from there. It seems like it happened fairly quickly, but, you know, as we age, everything seems like it went more quickly. More people were hired. I was the project coordinator for a few different WSC sub committees; thank goodness, Bob Stewart took over the H&I World Service Conference Committee. I did a lot of other things—Public Information, Literature—and we all kind of did fellowship services, responding to requests from the fellowship, all of that. That’s how the office made inroads first and then had a huge influence on the conference committees. Because now there were staff from the office—paid employees—supporting and reporting to the subcommittees. A project coordinator, as more were hired, and often another WSO staff person, was assigned to every conference committee. That person was responsible for taking minutes, writing reports, sending them out for review and comments, making changes, so that the reports would be ready for the next meeting—for approval. You know, the usual stuff that happens with meeting minutes. Also, for keeping all the information— (At that time, it was all on paper, pretty much) We had typewriters and progressed to word processors and finally computers. So, keeping all the files, and making sure that when the next meeting of the conference committee happened, all the relevant information was there. Helping the chair with the agenda, reminding them: “This is where we left off. This is what you said you were going to be prepared for.” All that administrative work for a committee of volunteers. Because, you know, they all had jobs—well, most of them—they were busy and working. The paid employee handled all the administrative work that had to get done.
NA: Now, this is during a time when the World Service Conference quarterlies were taking place, correct? Where the office employee would attend the quarterly and help facilitate?
Danette: Yes. The word “quarterlies” just threw me for a second because I don’t know if that’s what they were called at their inception. But yes, that’s what they became known as. The calendar changed over the years depending on committees, subcommittees, and all that. But yes, the quarterlies, primarily. As we tried to meet the fellowship where it lived, those quarterlies got spread out across the country. Eventually, there were all kinds of travel and trips—subcommittees and ad hocs— small groups that went outside the country. So yeah, that’s what we did for the WSC committees. At some point, I left the WSO. I can’t remember when that was. Before I left, several other employees had been hired. And many many new & exciting developments occurred. We had contact from Quebec with N.A. literature a group of members there had written with the assistance of a local nonmember college professor ( I think) who was bilingual and helped them with the translation. They were so keen to carry a clear NA message. Stone put me on a plane to them pretty immediately upon our receipt of their correspondence. It was the middle of winter and it was an amazing experience. Those members housed and fed me and were so excited that their correspondence had resulted in such a speedy response. They never expected anyone would actually make a trip to them. The office subsequently paid for 1 or 2 of them to spend time at the office and oversee the remaining translations and ultimate final product. It turned out to be serendipitous that our first contact with translation from outside the U.S. involved a language that was dually important to two very different French speaking populations. French Canadian was not the same as French in France. Our only other early experience with that was when the Spanish translation came up in Spain, which is quite different from the Mexican & South American Spanish. I don’t recall when, but Ginni Swanson was hired as point person for literature coordinator and translations. Also, during that time, the WSO started the Loner Group and its newsletter. There were many similar things that Stone had in his plan, which he orchestrated from the WSO in Southern California. Ron Hofius was hired; he was and is a brilliant writer and with a brain and thought process that allowed him to organize any type of written or verbal material. He and the others continued the work that had been started to expand the WSO outreach to the worldwide fellowship. With the plan in place and paid people to carry it out, he was unstoppable. There were things— as we’ve already covered in our previous discussions-specifically the manner in which planning was organized, literature was created and translations controlled — just too many things that, in good conscience, I couldn’t be a part of anymore. I had to separate myself. I couldn’t stay. I don’t know exactly when that was, but it happened. During that period when I separated myself, I just… I was out. Then, sometime later, someone I don’t recall, asked me to attend the World Service Conference [1989] to accept a nomination to the Board of Trustees. I showed up, accepted the nomination, and served. I felt really positive about that because I thought that, in that position, I would be working with the part of NA that was then known as the spiritual guardians of the Fellowship’s guiding, spiritual principles. Away from employment, back to volunteer service. I knew most of the people on the board. I respected them. I knew they came from the same place in their own personal recovery that I did. I got nominated, served my term, and then the inventory happened. And as I’ve said, I think the inventory was a waste of resources. After that, I gave my letter to the trustees stating I would not accept a second term. Because, similar to report submitted by BryceSullivan as WSC Lit Chair, the inventory was a farce. — i’ve since learned that report was a greatly revised and pared down version of the recap and report prepared by Michael Lee, a previous WSC Lit Chair. I felet that no had taken their own inventory and that played out in egotistic, ethnocentric, and non-spiritual decision making that did not seem at all focused on our primary purpose. It seemed like we were incapable, or unwilling, to take an honest look at ourselves, individually and as a group. To really examine what our responsibilities were and how we were – or weren’t – managing them. It didn’t come out in the inventory at all. That process just… didn’t hit the mark. So, I stepped away. After that, I was gone again for some time until I was contacted about participating in the Resolution Group, a small group of non-involved (or previously involved world service people. We were really excited about that effort. And then that got kind of… pulled apart, too. That was the end of my willingness to go back to World Services.
NA: When you began with N.A., it was a small, struggling entity—basically in Southern California, to be more precise. From there, it grew into Northern California. And with the subcommittee structure, the way it was—with these quarterlies popping up— That was actually
one of my first encounters with NA: a quarterly. I was welcomed. I could just walk into the room and feel a part of. It was the same when It Works: How and Why was being written. They came to Kansas City, and I just had to drive two hours. I could walk into the meeting room where Board of Trustee members were helping write the book. Talk about feeling a part of something— They were interested in hearing what you had to say, and they would write it down.
Danette: My goodness – yes, I get the chills reading this transcript and your description of those times. They were special times.
NA: So, you came from the small N.A. community— to statewide, to nationwide, to now easily recognized worldwide. The office is still there in Southern California, plugging along, trying to facilitate a worldwide fellowship— in Iran, Russia, Europe, America. And that’s not the way our predecessors did it. In A.A., they have a North American service arm. And I guess it was Joe Gossett who talked about it—How trying to do this for the entire world might be biting off more than we can handle. I wonder sometimes if we didn’t get misguided with that inventory— like you’re talking about—structurally and spiritually. Did we get misguided somehow?
Danette: Well, yeah. As I’ve mentioned before, I read that letter from Joe Gossett— Because I wasn’t really active during that time. Or at least not the way I had been. Jack told me I was still there, but… whatever, we’ll find out more about that later. Anyway, when I read Joe’s letter, I absolutely agreed with it. Maybe I even read it at the time. I don’t remember. But I would have supported it. It is ludicrous—then and now— for the World Service Office to believe they can control a worldwide fellowship. The arrogance of that… The misunderstanding… The illusion of control… It’s not practical. It’s not realistic.
NA: We were working on the Guide to Service back then. I was a volunteer—like you said— volunteers and subcommittees. I was helping with the structural pieces of the Guide to Service. I guess I assumed that was my niche, my forte. Something I was capable of, something I could comprehend and associate the pieces together. I’m not usually a puzzle person, but that structural work really interested me. We were getting to the chapters on Group Conscience, National Service— things that were real advances in the service structure. Then all of a sudden—“Let’s take an inventory.” And all that work just got swept away. Never to be seen again.
Danette: That’s very interesting.
NA: Because right now, where I live—Well, the last time I attended region—They didn’t want the areas raising Group Conscience on things from the Conference Agenda Report. They just wanted to know: the number of yeses, the number of noes, from each area. Then they tally it all up— “47 yeses, 43 noes, so that’s a yes.”
Danette: I can tell you—that didn’t just happen where you live. That took over.
NA: Oh, yeah.
Danette: It’s been that way for—I want to say decades now. I don’t know how many. But a long time. The idea of the Group Conscience coming from the Groups… It left a long time ago. And that’s probably a big part of why people aren’t interested anymore.
NA: You mentioned Vida a little while ago— and BobStewart, Ron Hofius & Freddie.
Danette: There were so many people.
NA: Do you remember Dee? She used to answer the phones? All of these people— there’s no real record of their employment history or involvement. But it was so great. You’d call WSO, say, “Hi, Dee,” and she would know your voice.
Danette: Dee was great. Now, there’s an example of a special worker— a non-addict special worker— who did a very defined scope of work, who was accountable to a board of addicts- that was so valuable to the fellowship. As you’re describing, she was an individual everybody knew and loved.
NA: Dee was amazing.
Danette: She loved her work. She really felt in her heart the kind of service she was providing. That’s the kind of person—the kind of personality—you want for any special worker, but especially a non-addict special worker.
NA: Yeah. You know, I was into H&I for a period of time, so I got to know Freddie. I morphed more into public information participation now, so I got to know guys like Biff. I think Bob—was Bob doing PI then? Bob Stewart? I can’t remember his name now. He became one of the first people on the World Board. Yeah, it totally escapes me right now. But yeah. Then he went into the IT department later. It’s been so long, I can’t remember his name. And Dee’s name just kind of popped out of nowhere—I’ve been trying to think of it forever. It was just so nice to participate back then, when we were growing in leaps and bounds. And it seemed like that growth continued right up until the inventory. Once that inventory happened, the growth seemed to diminish.
Danette: I just had an intuitive thought: I think we’re going to get some really good and helpful information and perspective from some of the other people we’re going to interview and talk with. Because, although I agree with you—based on your memory of the timeline—that the inventory was a marker, I believe—my intuition tells me— it wasn’t the inventory itself that caused the change. It was what led up to the inventory. As you mentioned, the work on the Temporary Working Guide just stopped. A lot of other things stopped. That always puzzled me. It was like: “Okay, we’re going to stop doing everything so we can do this inventory.” And I remember thinking: “Whoa, whoa. Why? That doesn’t even make sense. Why would you stop?” You can’t just stop taking care of a worldwide fellowship because you’re doing an inventory.
And I know that’s exactly what happened. It’s a perfect example: As an individual addict, am I going to stop my life while I’m working my Fourth and Fifth Step? No! That’s not productive. Why would World Services stop the work to do an inventory?
NA: And then it took forever. And cost all that money.
Danette – Yes, It was like—I don’t know what happened—but something big, bad, and dark was at play there. “Stop everything.” It just never made sense to me.
NA: That’s a very good point. Well, you know what? Here we are again. And your final words are just as valuable as everything you said on the first tape. Danette, again, thank you for doing this—for taking part. Your help in future interviews is going to be instrumental in gaining more insight, and helping our readers understand more about the history of Narcotics Anonymous through the witnesses to the events. So, thank you again. And the final words are yours.
Danette: Well, you’re very welcome, as always. And my gratitude goes to you for being one of those kinds of people—filling this particular role in the fellowship at this particular time— to get things down on paper and archived, assuming that future generations are going to be interested in knowing about any of this LOL. As I mentioned in my last text back and forth with Jack Bernstein, when we were talking about setting something up— I said: “There is no rush—other than aging.” Because we aren’t going to be around a whole lot longer. So, I’m so glad this is happening. That’s it. Those are my last words.