5-2-2025
Thom: Phil, thank you for doing this. With all the knowledge you possess of early NA history, I feel lucky to be part of this conversation.
Phil: Thanks. Yeah, I’m going to go back to 1982. I was 30 years old at the time—though I got clean in 1972. We were working on putting out the Basic Text. I was elected to the World Service Office Board. Just to clarify, there were two boards: the World Service Office Board, and the Board for Narcotics Anonymous. Two separate things.
Thom: Got it. So you chaired the WSO Board?
Phil: Yeah. I used to joke that I became chair because I got along with everybody. We had folks like Doug Forsmith, Kevin Fay, Fawn, Jerry Polcaro, and my sponsor Chuck Gates—we always voted as a unit.
Thom: So how did the literature process really get rolling?
Phil: It actually started with the Literature Committee in Atlanta—Craig Pierce was involved. We wanted to get the proofs from the Basic Text, but we had to get Jimmy [Kinnon] out of the way because some were afraid he’d want to change everything. But honestly, Jimmy supported us writing our own literature. He wanted us to find our own voice.
Thom: So what was the issue with the printing?
Phil: We didn’t take bids. We just used a printer who was a friend of Jimmy’s. He’d done our white pamphlets and flyers. Jimmy even married him and his wife—he had a license for that. But the guy strung us along. Eventually, we discovered all his printing machines were repossessed. We had given him about $7,000, and nothing got printed.
Danette: Oh wow.
Phil: Yeah, it was humiliating. I told Jimmy I’d go in front of the World Service Conference, explain everything, and resign. They say I had other jobs lined up—but I didn’t. I was just trying to take the heat so we could move forward.
Thom: That’s a huge burden.
Phil: It was. I went into a depression for about 10 years after that. I shut down, didn’t answer my phone. I carried so much shame for letting the fellowship down.
Thom: I just want to acknowledge how brave it is for you to talk about that now. The shame you carried, the pain—it’s heavy. But it wasn’t all on you.
Phil: Thanks. It took me a long time to see that. I think I went from 1983 to about 1995 without attending a World Service Conference or anything like that. I isolated. Then one day, I saw that people were still using the Basic Text. That’s when it hit me: We didn’t fail. The work we did mattered. It survived.
Thom: That’s powerful. And true. The text is still here. The fellowship is still here.
Phil: Yeah. And I started coming around again. I got invited to speak at a few conventions. People welcomed me. I realized I wasn’t some pariah. That helped me heal. But I’ll tell you—those early years, they shaped me. We didn’t know what we were doing half the time. But we believed in the message.
Danette: That belief comes through even now. You’re still carrying it.
Phil: I try. One of the things I’ve always appreciated about NA is that it’s about transformation. Not just getting clean, but becoming whole. That’s what happened to me. Even when I disappeared, I wasn’t using. I was just wounded.
Thom: It’s interesting—you said earlier that Jimmy supported NA creating its own literature, even though some people assumed he wouldn’t.
Phil: Yeah, that’s one of the biggest myths. Jimmy wanted NA to have its own voice. He believed in autonomy. But people were scared of him. They treated him like a big scary presence, but really, he just wanted us to do what was right. He could be gruff, but he was committed to the fellowship.
Danette: That really challenges a lot of the lore that’s out there. People have these hardened versions of history—this person was “good,” that one “bad.” It’s rarely that simple.
Phil: Exactly. It wasn’t black and white. It was a bunch of recovering addicts trying to build something bigger than themselves. Sometimes we got it wrong. But sometimes we got it really, really right.
Thom: One thing I keep coming back to is how the service structure started to feel more like a business—especially in the ’90s and 2000s. It seems like professionalism started replacing spiritual service.
Phil: You’re not wrong. At first, everything we did was from the heart. We were all volunteers. Nobody was paid. Then slowly, things shifted. We needed consistency. We needed people who could manage the day-to-day. So we started hiring staff.
But with that came a different mindset. The people who were getting paid didn’t always understand the spiritual part of it. They understood deliverables, deadlines, accountability—corporate stuff. That changed things.
Danette: And that tension is still with us. You talk to members in meetings, and they say, “Why don’t they just…”—and then list some simple-sounding solution. But they don’t see the layers of structure, policy, legal, and financial management. It’s complicated. But we’ve lost the ability to explain that in a way that feels grounded in our principles.
Phil: Yeah. And we’ve also forgotten how to say, “We don’t know.” Back in the day, we were okay with admitting we were figuring it out as we went. Now it feels like we’re supposed to have everything nailed down. That’s not recovery. Recovery is becoming, not arriving.
Thom: Wow. That hits.
Phil: And I don’t want to sound like I’m just criticizing. There are amazing people doing service today. But the culture has changed. It used to be, “Let’s come together and do what we can.” Now it’s more like, “Submit your résumé.”
Danette: I remember when we’d write minutes on a legal pad, and decisions happened in a hallway after the meeting. It wasn’t polished—but it was real.
Phil: Exactly. And we’ve gained a lot in professionalism, but we’ve also lost some of that rawness, that honesty. That willingness to say, “I’m not sure, but I’ll pray on it and get back to you.”
Thom: I’ve heard people say NA should run like a nonprofit corporation. But to me, that misses the point. We’re a spiritual fellowship, not just a service provider.
Phil: Yes. And if we ever lose that, we’re done. The moment we forget why we’re doing this—the spiritual foundation—we’ll turn into just another organization. That’s not what saved our lives.
Danette: Something I’ve heard over and over in these conversations is how much people gave—and how much it cost them. The burnout, the hurt, the isolation. Service saved us, but sometimes it nearly destroyed us too.
Phil: You’re absolutely right. I’ve seen it in myself and others. We give and give, thinking we’re doing God’s work. And maybe we are. But we forget to take care of ourselves. We confuse being useful with being worthy.
Thom: I’ve done that too. Tied my self-worth to my service role. And when I stepped away or wasn’t needed anymore, I felt lost.
Phil: That’s one of the great spiritual traps. We start thinking we are our position. But none of that matters. What matters is our recovery, our connection to a higher power, and how we show up for the next addict.
Danette: And that’s the part I worry we’re losing. We’re great at talking about structure, but not always so great at talking about love, grace, and humility.
Phil: Those are the things that built NA. It wasn’t policies or procedures. It was hugs, late-night phone calls, coffee after meetings. The structure was born out of that love—not the other way around.
Thom: So how do we get back to that?
Phil: By remembering what we were like when we got here. Broken. Grateful. Willing. If we stay in touch with that part of ourselves, the rest will follow.
Thom: I’ve always said the greatest leaders in NA are the ones who still clean ashtrays or make coffee. They don’t forget where they came from.
Phil: Exactly. Titles come and go. But character lasts. And in NA, character is built one day at a time, through service, surrender, and staying clean.
Thom: Phil, what do you hope comes from conversations like this? These history projects, these reflections—what’s the purpose in your eyes?
Phil: I hope it gives people permission to be honest. To say, “We tried something, and it didn’t work,” without shame. To share what we’ve learned without pretending we always knew what we were doing.
Because the next generation is going to face things we can’t imagine. And they’ll need the same courage we needed. Not just to act, but to listen. To trust the process. To make mistakes. And to love each other through it.
Danette: That’s exactly why we started this project. Not to glorify the past, but to create a record of what really happened—how messy and beautiful it was—and to make space for truth.
Phil: Truth is everything. If we lose that, we lose our message. The Steps only work when we’re honest. The Traditions only work when we’re transparent. The Concepts only work when we’re humble.
Thom: And we don’t have to be perfect. We just have to be real.
Phil: Amen. Real is enough. In fact, it’s better than perfect. Real is what saves lives.
Danette: Thank you, Phil. For your time, your heart, and your story. It’s a gift.
Phil: Thank you both. These conversations mean a lot to me. I didn’t always know where I belonged in NA. But today, I do. And it’s right here—with people who care enough to ask the hard questions.
Thom: Let’s keep doing it. Let’s keep making room for the truth.
Phil: I’m in.