June 11, 2025
Tom: Hi Chuck. Danette again. Thanks for doing this. What an honor it is to get to have a conversation with you and Tom, especially at the same time. First of all, I want to say thank you for your years of service back when NA was just getting its legs under itself and for sticking with it when many other people would have just walked away. You stuck with it. Thank you.
I ran across a document recently that said you were the very first treasurer of the San Fernando Valley Area Service Committee. Is that right?
Chuck: That’s true, yeah.
Tom: And that was the very first ASC, I believe, wasn’t it?
Chuck: It was, yeah. As I recall, we got some heat for that.
Tom: What kind of heat did you get?
Chuck: People were upset that we broke away. Some of the people that were, I think, removed from the board got upset. Of course, that’s…
Danette: What did you break away from at that time?
Chuck: From the rest of the area there.
Tom: I think it was more of a case of breaking in. It was the beginning of a new service structure that other people objected to.
Chuck: Exactly, yeah. We got objections on anything that was new that came up. People objected.
Danette: I’m curious though, I need clarity. What was it before? Was it nothing or just a group of the board?
Chuck: There was only one area. So to break off, that’s where the controversy came in.
Danette: Was it just the Southern California area or the whole region? What was it called?
Chuck: I don’t remember what we were called then.
Tom: I believe they called it the San Fernando Valley, Danette. The ASC became the representational force for all the groups when it came to meetings at the region or, in essence, the world. People were going to throw mud at that idea. But Chuck’s memory says that San Fernando Valley broke off from the rest of Southern California.
Danette: So the San Fernando Valley was the first entity that declared itself an area service committee? Got it.
Tom: And Chuck got to hold all the money.
Chuck: I don’t know how much there was then, but it wasn’t much.
Tom: What year did you get clean, Chuck?
Chuck: 1970.
Tom: What’s the date?
Chuck: March 11th, 1970.
Tom: Congratulations.
Chuck: Thank you.
Tom: So what’d you have then? Just the white book and a couple of IPs?
Chuck: No IPs. The only thing we had was the white book, which was actually more of a tan book and narrower. And of course, we used the AA literature, the big book.
Tom: Were there any service guidelines?
Chuck: I don’t recall. The Tree was probably the first thing I remember.
Tom: Yeah, the Tree came out in 1976, I believe.
Tom: How many years did you serve on the World Service Office Board of Directors?
Chuck: I don’t know what year I started. I got involved with the WSO when it came to Jimmy’s house and stayed until a year or two after the Basic Text came out.
Tom: And you spent some time as a trustee too, didn’t you?
Chuck: I did, yeah.
Tom: Was that after the book came out?
Chuck: No, that was before the book came out.
Tom: You said you were at the office when it got to Jimmy’s house. Do you remember where it was before?
Chuck: It started at Bob Barrett’s house. Then it could have been at Suicide Prevention for a bit. I know it was on Van Nuys Boulevard in the valley, upstairs next to a bail bondsman. Cry Help had a portion and WSO took over a portion. Then it went to Jimmy’s.
Tom: Do you remember when it became known as the World Service Office?
Chuck: I’m not sure. It may have happened around the early ’70s. I don’t ever remember it not being called the World Service Office.
Tom: Was it defined that way because Southern California had an office of its own?
Chuck: I think it was more of a dream back then—there was going to be a World Service Office.
Tom: The fellowship was small then, wasn’t it?
Chuck: Yes, very small. I think when I came it was under 40 meetings in the world.
Tom: Wow. There were like 2,000 meetings when I came around in ’86.
Tom: We talked to Jack Bernstein, who gave us a copy of the first directory. Tom, how many meetings did it list?
Tom: Five or six.
Chuck: When I came, there were six meetings. They had seven, but one in Glendale had just closed down.
Tom: What was it like to go to meetings with Jimmy K?
Chuck: He was my sponsor for a lot of years, so it was a real treat. He had an old truck with part of the floorboard gone, lived in the house he got loaded in until he died, and he didn’t have any money. He was outspoken—if you said something he didn’t think was right, he’d call you on it. If you crossed him by violating the traditions, he didn’t want anything to do with you. I remember someone from out of state who he didn’t agree with trying to hug him and Jimmy saying, “No.”
Tom: He loved NA, didn’t he?
Chuck: He gave his life to Narcotics Anonymous. Everything he did was about NA. Before he married Betty, I could go over any time. He’d always make coffee, offer cookies, make sure you were okay, and then start talking. He loved to talk, and he was very intelligent. Sometimes I didn’t even understand what he was talking about—it was so advanced. He had 35 or 36 years when he died and was always thinking ahead for NA.
Tom: You were just saying Jimmy was so much wiser than the time he had in recovery.
Chuck: Yeah, he was always thinking ahead for Narcotics Anonymous. He even put together a time capsule in case anything happened to NA so it wouldn’t have to start all over again. I don’t know where it was or how it worked, but I remember him telling me that.
Danette: I wonder if it really exists somewhere.
Chuck: I’m sure it does.
Danette: He was obviously divinely inspired, to have that kind of wisdom.
Chuck: And he talked about Narcotics Anonymous up until the day he died. I have a tape he gave me from the hospital when he knew he was dying. It’s him and Peppy talking about the beginnings of NA.
Danette: Have you had that digitized?
Chuck: Not yet, but I’m going to. Anthony at the WSO said he could do that, so I’ll probably turn it over to him.
Danette: I just worry about all the stuff given to the office. It doesn’t seem like it’s been digitized or put in any order. We need to preserve it.
Chuck: Yeah, I know. Tom, you said the history stops in 1998? That’s not good.
Tom: Right, nothing before 1998—nothing about the trustees, the World Service Conference, the subcommittee structure.
Chuck: There’s a lot of information in Bob Stone’s book. Most of it is accurate. Bob Barrett agreed with it, too, even though some of it isn’t perfect.
Tom: Speaking of going to meetings with Jimmy, he was always trying to get people to write for The Voice, wasn’t he?
Chuck: Yes, he liked to record and write everything down. He recorded a lot at Cry Help where he taught the steps. I don’t know what happened to all those recordings.
Tom: How did Jimmy teach you to work the steps? Did he use a guide?
Chuck: No, just his words. When I asked him to sponsor me, he said, “I’m going to be the toughest sponsor you’ll ever have. You’re going to have to go after it. I’m not going to chase you.” So when I was going through a problem, I’d go to him, and he’d explain how he worked things. He made you feel comfortable sharing anything.
Tom: Did you ever feel like he might tell you you needed outside help?
Chuck: I did when I shared my inventory, but he told me, “That’s just your head out to get you.” He was very intuitive.
Chuck: One example—my dad committed suicide by overdose. He was in a coma, and they told me he passed away. Within minutes, Jimmy called asking if there was anything he could do. I hadn’t even called him. It felt like he was reading my mind.
Danette: That’s something we still say—“They’re reading my mind.”
Tom: Did he reference AA steps at that time or was he already developing his own first step language?
Chuck: It came in way before I did—he was already teaching “powerless over addiction.”
Danette: So that was already in place when you got there.
Chuck: Yes. He knew it wasn’t just about drugs or alcohol. There was so much more.
Danette: Did he encourage you to write as part of working the steps?
Chuck: He didn’t directly encourage it, but I knew I had to write inventories. He was my second sponsor. My first was only 18 or 19 but had a year clean. He later relapsed and died of the disease.
Danette: Was the white book all Jimmy’s writing then?
Chuck: A lot of it was Jimmy, but Greg Pierce helped with some writing too. Greg came in about a month or two after I did.
Tom: Is Greg still alive?
Chuck: No.
Danette: Chuck, do you know who originated the idea of “90 meetings in 90 days”?
Chuck: I don’t know. It could have come from AA, but I’m not sure.
Danette: I don’t remember hearing it when I got clean.
Chuck: I don’t remember hearing it either. We just automatically went to as many meetings as possible.
Tom: Did Jimmy ever develop a step-working guide?
Chuck: No, it was all word of mouth. Some people might have transcribed his recordings and called that a step guide, but he never wrote one. He loved to record everything, though. He had reel-to-reel recordings, even wire recordings from before tape. His house was full of stuff he kept.
Tom: That explains why the WSO started selling tapes. Jimmy must have seen it as a good way to carry the message.
Chuck: Absolutely. He wanted to get the message out, especially as NA was starting to grow.
Tom: Do you remember him sending tapes out?
Chuck: Mostly we sent literature and starter kits. Volunteers put packets together for people to start meetings.
Tom: Who would notice when you were low on white books? Would Jimmy order more?
Chuck: Yes, Jimmy handled that. The office was all volunteers back then. Jimmy didn’t get paid, maybe $50 a month for storage. He answered the phones too—he was the World Service Office.
Tom: If you were there volunteering and the phone rang, would you answer it?
Chuck: Yes. It was probably the only NA helpline in the world at that time.
Tom: Who do you recall as part of the core group of volunteers?
Chuck: Fawn, Doug Smith, Bill Perez, and later Phil Weber. We also brought people we sponsored as part of service.
Danette: I remember being taken to Jimmy’s house early in recovery with a group. I might not have signed a book or anything, but I was there.
Chuck: There was a sign-in book for accountability, but some occasional helpers may not have signed. There was a core group that came regularly.
That was one of the problems—the office had no money and relied entirely on volunteers. Jimmy never took a salary and put in countless hours.
Tom: And the World Service Conference was held in conjunction with the World Convention back then. What was that like?
Chuck: The one I remember most was actually the first World Service Conference, which brought Northern and Southern California together. That’s where Bob Stone came in. Jimmy had met him and knew he was a parliamentarian. He expected issues because of personalities, and he was right.
Tom: So Bob Stone ran the meeting?
Chuck: He tried to keep it together and did a good job. That’s why he was invited back and eventually became WSO manager. He helped us start following Robert’s Rules of Order.
Tom: So Bob Stone was the parliamentarian at the very first World Service Conference?
Chuck: Yes. It was just one day.
Tom: And you were on the board of directors of the office then?
Chuck: I wasn’t part of the board at that time; I was there to observe.
Tom: That was before there were any subcommittees.
Chuck: Exactly. That was the first conference, I think it was 1976.
Danette: How many people were there?
Chuck: Probably 40 or 50. Bill Beck was there, Greg Pierce was there, Jimmy, and others. I don’t recall Sylvia (Magdalena) being there, but she was big up north.
Danette: Do you know if Hank (Magdalena) was there?
Chuck: I don’t recall.
Tom: Jimmy was pretty sure there would be difficulties between Northern and Southern California?
Chuck: Yes. They had different ideas about the fellowship. Northern California was printing their own literature, and Southern California was too. Someone had to say, “We’ll print the literature, and you’ll buy it from us.”
Danette: So the “us and them” literature issue started way back then?
Chuck: Oh yeah, it started between Northern and Southern California.
Tom: Do you know anything about the changes to the NA symbol—from the old Carena symbol, to the circle with lines, to just the circle?
Chuck: No, not that I recall.
Tom: Would you assume Jimmy had full control over what went to the printer and what the designs were?
Chuck: For the IPs and literature, yes. For the Basic Text, no.
Tom: What about the fourth and ninth traditions? Jimmy was the one who caught the problems in the Basic Text?
Chuck: Yes. He read it over and realized it wasn’t right. He pulled the trustees together, and they agreed. The book had already been printed or was in process, so they made the changes afterward.
Danette: He was the only one who caught that?
Chuck: Yes. He brought it up to Greg, Chuck Skinner, and the rest of the trustees, and they realized he was right.
Tom: Was it because not enough review books were out, or because people just wanted to get it printed?
Chuck: Probably both. Jimmy was very intuitive about traditions and picked up on it. Everyone else was focused on getting the book out.
Danette: We found a letter you wrote to the conference at one point, and at the end you made comments about how Jimmy’s termination had come about. You expressed how bad you felt about it.
Chuck: Yes, I was there when they voted Jimmy out. They framed it as giving him a different position, like writing for NA. But he took all the heat for problems at the office. In reality, there was no money, no volunteers, and he was working countless hours. The money didn’t come in until the Basic Text was published. They thought someone else could do a better job, and Bob Stone did a good job, but he was being paid. Jimmy wasn’t.
Danette: The way it was done was demeaning, wasn’t it?
Chuck: Yes. There was no thought about how they were going to treat Jimmy. He felt like he’d been fired. He told me, “I’ve never been fired from a job.” It should have been handled differently. And somehow the doors got locked and he was locked out of the office. It was horrible.
Tom: Many people from out of state didn’t know what was going on at the WSO.
Chuck: Exactly. They thought the office should be moved to their area or that they could do a better job.
Tom: Jimmy passed away from tuberculosis, correct?
Chuck: No, it was cancer—lung cancer that spread to his brain. He fought it for a couple of years, but when they opened him up and saw it had spread, they knew they couldn’t do more.
Tom: Did he suffer at the end?
Chuck: I don’t think so. He was on pain medication, but he never seemed loaded. He did it as directed.
Tom: I came across a resignation letter signed by Jimmy in 1981. He resigned from the Board of Trustees. Was that because of his personality and straightforward style?
Chuck: Possibly. He was very hands-on and straightforward. There was animosity toward the office because of literature not getting out and egos clashing. I’m not sure exactly what was happening with the trustees, but I know he still wanted to be involved at the WSO. It was more his baby than the trustees.
Tom: When he was on the trustees, was he also running the office?
Chuck: No, they weren’t connected. I did the same thing at one point, serving on both boards, and realized it was better to pick one or the other. There may have been conflicts with personalities. Jimmy and Greg Pierce used to be very close but later parted ways and never really reconnected. That was a shame.
Tom: Do you have any thoughts about merging the Board of Trustees and the Board of Directors into one World Board?
Chuck: I haven’t kept up with it much. Originally, trustees were supposed to be the guardians of the traditions and served for life. But it seems to be working now—the fellowship is growing.
Danette: I grew up thinking the trustees guided the fellowship and the directors ran the business. I’m still not sure about the change.
Chuck: Whatever happens, the groups will keep NA going. That’s for sure.
Tom: What do you think Jimmy’s intentions were for creating a Board of Directors, a Board of Trustees, and a World Service Conference? Was it about checks and balances?
Chuck: Yes. The WSO was very hands-on, and it would have been hard for the trustees, who weren’t as involved, to be connected. They each had different jobs to do.
Tom: Originally the trustees had subcommittees that didn’t match the WSC subcommittees like H&I or literature. Do you know why?
Chuck: No. I had left the trustees by then and wasn’t aware of their subcommittees.
Tom: Did you ever attend a quarterly subcommittee meeting as a trustee?
Chuck: No.
Danette: Jack mentioned that Jimmy had drawn up a two-page vision of the service structure showing areas and regions. Do you remember that?
Chuck: A little bit. I think it was not only Jimmy but also Greg Pierce. Before their falling out, they worked on that together.
Danette: I think Lois gave all of Greg’s stuff to the World Service Office after his death.
Chuck: Yes, and I believe Betty Kinnon sold a lot of Jimmy’s materials to the WSO too. She didn’t give everything, but she gave a lot.
Danette: I hope they do something with all that before it crumbles.
Chuck: I’ll ask Anthony about it. It would be a shame if Jimmy’s step-working materials or recordings were lost.
Danette: That would be incredible to have. Do you remember any step-working guide he did?
Chuck: No, just the tapes where he talked through the steps. There was also a book where a bunch of us contributed our stories, but it was never approved because it was put together more by professionals. Pepe was in it, I was in it, and a few others.
Danette: Do you remember the name of the book?
Chuck: I don’t. It could have been a step-study book, but I’m not sure.
Danette: Let me know if you talk to Anthony about those materials.
Chuck: I will.
Danette: Is there anything else you’d like to have recorded for posterity?
Chuck: I’d have to think about that for a bit.
Danette: Would you like to do another interview next week or the week after?
Chuck: In a couple of weeks would be good. If we can do it sometime in July, that works.
Danette: Great. Maybe we can talk about some of the Bob Stone material in his book too.
Chuck: Okay. If you have ideas or questions, that helps.
Danette: Do you have any old documents saved around the house?
Chuck: I do. There’s one I was going to turn over to the WSO. When I became president after Phil Perez left, I was involved with an attorney on the controversy about the WSO being separate from the fellowship. I kept notes on those meetings and also on the Basic Text process. I’ve never shown those notes to anyone.
Danette: Would you be willing to share that with me? I can scan it and give it back.
Chuck: Sure. You can pick it up at any Tuesday meeting.
Danette: That would be great. And about that tape, if you gave it to Ann (our website genius), she could transcribe it while you still keep the tape.
Chuck: That’s a good idea. The tape may need to be cleaned up, but we can see.
Tom: Having these conversations is fantastic. Danette has opened doors I couldn’t, and we’re preserving history the same way Jimmy did—by keeping everything. I’ve scanned everything I could find and put it online.
Danette: Have you looked at the NA History Tree website yet?
Chuck: No, send it to me.
Tom: I will. If there’s anything you want from it, let me know. I’ve searched far and wide for documents.
Danette: There’s a 2015 NA History Day recording on there with Steve Bice that’s really cool.
Chuck: Steve was a good man. He was vice chair of the conference when I was chair. He later took over and did a good job. I spent a lot of time with him.
Danette: Do you find it helpful to get a briefing on our questions before the interview?
Chuck: Absolutely.
Danette: Then I’ll work on that for next time. Thank you so much, Chuck. It’s been an honor to meet you and have this conversation.
Chuck: No problem. Thank you.
Danette: I’ll get that tape from you, digitize it, and return it within a week or two.
Chuck: Okay. Let’s talk again in July.
Danette: Sounds good. Thanks again.
Chuck: Thank you. Love you guys.