Danette B. with Tom M. | 12/8/1977

Danette B. with Tom M. | 12/8/1977

TOM: – Okay, we’re recording. And this is our second sit down and bringing back the conversation  to the World Service Office and the changes that took place. I guess as a result of the inventory  and the resolution, the Resolution group didn’t seem to get the respect that they really  deserved or commanded – I hate to use that word, but they picked you guys to do it – And then  you did it – And some of the resolutions were never acted on or adopted, but never  implemented? Or what’s your take on the adoption? 

DANETTE: – They weren’t implemented in the way we had written them, at all. Resolution A, which I mentioned  before, was what we had decided was the beginning. It had to happen first. – I mean, our work was based on a premise that if A wasn’t adopted, the remainder of the work needed to wait. But that was not taken as hoped. It was piecemeal and, to this day, has not been used as intended. 

TOM: – So they went, they, you know,  

DANETTE: – and I don’t really even know who they  is composed of. The powers that be, there  were people at the office, in the conference, there were, you know, that implementation group  or whatever they were. I don’t know even who was on that- Was there a transition group too? 

TOM: – Transition group, yes. 

DANETTE: – And then implementation. There were both. It was picked  apart and stretched over such a long period of time that, looking back now, and I hadn’t  really, I’ve never said this before. I think it’s become easier as time went on.  We do reinvent the wheel over and over because people don’t stay involved  and they leave and new people come in who don’t really ever get a historical perspective. So, by  the time that there was something that was really presented to the conference, and I know this  isn’t exactly accurate, but some things, I think, took another full conference year and a half, maybe, two, I think. It was a full year before the  transition. Oh, three. 

TOM: – I’m thinking three or four. Didn’t they switch over to the two-year cycle right about then? 

DANETTE: – I don’t remember. I don’t know. So, by the time these things were put out for actual  conference approval, time had passed – And the regional delegates representing the fellowship who were first there were no longer  there, at least most of them. And “world services”{ presented what they all agreed on, finally, after a  transition group had torn it apart and then the implementation group had put it back together,  really. And so, it was very disappointing. I mean, resolution A was not, I can’t remember now,  there might have been the one, I can’t remember which letter point included consensus-based  decision-making that was used. I’d have to look again. Consensus based decision making was adopted for discussion and adopted years later. 

TOM: – Yeah.

DANETTE: –  And that was a great thing. But yeah, the other ones were, you know, kind of  hit and miss, pick and choose. And it’s one of the reasons that I know at least a couple of us,  probably three of us, maybe all of us. I think there were five or six in the resolution group. We  just, you know, were very, very, not just disappointed, but it was kind of like, why? Why did you  have us go through all this and then do a transition and implementation group that did not  support the work? I guess they didn’t get what they wanted to get. 

TOM: – From you. 

DANETTE: – Yeah. From the resolution group. Apparently. 

TOM: – Well, the resolution group proposed the unified budget as well, didn’t they? 

DANETTE: – You know, I wish I had that in front of me. I can’t – Oh, yes. Yes, they did – And it was completely ignored – 

TOM: – Well, it was put into practice, though.  

DANETTE: – And years later, took a little bit of finagling. And I was actually really  surprised when I looked back, because I haven’t looked at any of that stuff. And in all these  years, until you and I started talking.  

TOM: – And did they ask for a unified board?  

DANETTE: – That was the thing I think is in there in the resolution group. And I was like, really?  We wanted a unified board? Yeah. Because that happened – And I was appalled – 

TOM: – Right. – That was a resolution. Yeah. But it wasn’t until 98 that that became a reality. 

DANETTE: – And of course, it was. Oh, I think it was one of the latter of the A, B, C, D, E, F, G.  Maybe there were seven resolutions. I think that was one of F or G. Because again, going back  to resolution A – A, and B, and I think even C, which dealt with not just downsizing the number of  reps, but also equalizing, making more equitable the representation from the world and how  that representation then would finally would get funneled to a world service conference. If all of  those things had happened, then I think we agreed that, yeah, it would make sense to have one  world board because, if that point arrived, it would not be in charge of all the different countries and  regions. Right, right, it’s coming back to me. – Yeah. It was basically the that the office and the WSC treasury  would all be under one, I don’t know, purview or whatever you want to call it.   I’m trying as we speak, to look it up. I did talk to some of my acquaintances, friends at the, currently  at the world service office about that whole treasury thing. When did that happen,  what was the  exact happening about the money that had been going to the conference and then only the  money for literature went to the office and other, you know, other donations went to the  conference- that’s the question. And I pursued that a little bit more after the last time you and I talked – The people who were treasurers during that time have either died or we have no way to contact  them. And I was told by a friend at the office to contact a couple of people to talk to and  get in contact with. And Steve Rush responded, I think he responds to a lot of stuff and said that  they didn’t have any of that information from that period of time digitized and that he  personally could not come up with any names of anybody other than who I already tried that  might be helpful with that- So. Wow. 

TOM: – Isn’t that one of their mandates to be the archivist for the fellowship?  

DANETTE: – Oh yeah. And I’m not saying that he’s at fault, but that was his response, I mean, he doesn’t  have it. – Yeah, it’s not available from the office’s archives and he  personally didn’t have anything helpful or more names to give. 

TOM: – Yeah. Okay. Well, that kind of brings me to a point where I want to ask you, what direction  would you like to go? Would you like to go to the implementation of the world board and what’s  happened after that? Or would you like to talk more about the WSO and your, your years at the  office and what happened with the office and, and it grew and the book started selling and, you  know, that, what would you rather talk about?  

DANETTE: – Well, I only have personal experience about the WSO – That’s  the best stuff. Okay. Because the work, the, the boards being combined, I just have my personal opinion that that was horrible, at the time and way it was done..  

TOM: – Oh, but yeah, you saw what happened – I mean, so you want to talk, which direction  would you rather go?  

DANETTE: – Oh, I didn’t see what happened (with the combined Board)- the only reason I know it is because of  information that would come to me via, you know, our area, the GSRs, about World Service  Conference. And I heard that and was very distressed – the last straw for me. And then having a sponsee who was serving on the world board as the treasurer, but we didn’t really talk about any of that- So I don’t have any personal experience with that. She “fired” me as her sponsor when i attested to a set of minutes from a conversation, attesting only that it was really me and it had really happened teh way it was recorded. The document was used in a court case about FIPT and i think she was blindsided and embarrassed by some of world service colleagues about having a sponsor who was allegedly taking sides in a lawsuit that was costing NAWS money.  No one ever asked me directly if i was part of the lawsuit. I wasn’t by the way. I simply honestly answered the question about the one document

TOM: – Okay. So then let’s, let’s back up to your years at WSO with George and Bob Stone and all  of the, all of the original cast of, you know, were you there when Jimmy K was, did you ever go  to the office in his house? 

DANETTE: – Oh yeah. Oh, I thought we covered that- Yeah. Many of us back then, if you were really in the herd at that time, which was a much smaller herd, you went to Jimmy  K’s house because that was being of service- to help him fill literature orders, stuff, envelopes,  write correspondence back to people.  

TOM: – With a  typewriter. 

DANETTE: – Oh yeah. It was few years later, maybe not too long, you know, technology just took off. We got word processors and then computers after I had been hired by the world service office and then came Bob Stewart  – he  reminded me recently of this. He and I shared an office and we had an IBM Selectric word processor that  we shared – Do you remember the word processors?  So that was, so that’s after the WSO was moved out of Jimmy’s house and world services created a higher functioning office with Bob Stone at the helm.  

TOM: – Yeah. Right before computer, yeah, before computers.  

DANETTE: – And it was better than a typewriter. It was still a little bit cumbersome, but it  was a hell of a lot better than a typewriter. So yes, Jimmy had a typewriter and I think that typewriter is on display at the current NAWS headquarters. 

TOM: – Before that it was Jimmy K’s house, right?  

DANETTE: – Yeah. And there was something, where was I reading? I think it was in one of the  Upper Cumberland Area website- I can’t remember where I read this, that I realized, or I had a question and  maybe, you know, there was something written or maybe it was in Cathy Kinnon’s book that  there had been an office, um, what we call “over the hill from the San Fernando Valley” in  Hollywood, one on Crenshaw Boulevard – And then there was one on Vineyard in the Valley, an  office during the time that Jimmy was doing stuff, but I don’t ever recall hearing about it.  I  have no idea if she’s confused or whatever. There was an office in Hollywood –  but anyways, I only went to Jimmy’s house and that’s where the office was. And then there was  that whole long period of time where Bob Barrett was living on Crenshaw and handling the WSO from there, carried around the literature in his trunk to meetings to make sales. 

TOM: – He was delivering to the groups.  

DANETTE: – Yeah. Unbelievable where we come from.  

TOM: – So, um, the transition from the office in Jimmy’s house to the office with a door and keys  and says world services on the front of it and the big NA symbol.  

DANETTE: – That was, I think that was on Wyandotte. Was it on Wyandotte street? We were at  Wyandotte for a long time, right, right next to the Van Nuys airport. – And I think that’s, I don’t  think there was anything else in between there. I’m pretty sure that was after moves to Vineland and Crenshaw and back to Jimmy’s house and then to  Wyandotte. Yeah.  

TOM: – And so that was the door that, the rumor is, that they changed the lock, but didn’t tell  Jimmy.  

DANETTE: – Oh, I didn’t understand that- that Jimmy ever had access to Wyandotte – just now realized that. Yes, it had to have been at Wyandotte. . I guess he was coming to the Wyandotte office for a short period of time. 

TOM: – And then, so Bob Stone took over and you were one of the first people hired –  If not  the first. – 

DANETTE: – Well, no, because Vida and was it Freddie? Vida was hired – Vida Moro, who was a  well-known, respected and just a wonderful, wonderful person.  

TOM: – I remember Vida and Freddie. Yeah.  

DANETTE: – Yeah. And they were working in the warehouse. They were helping with the  literature orders and probably with some fellowship inquires.  

TOM: – Okay. Oh, really?  

DANETTE: – Yeah. I was hired as the first person hired for administrative functions.  Plus, I had lots of  business experience, accounting experience, you know. I was one of those kind of more  highly skilled, educated addicts at the time that Stone sometimes hired. And you know, I don’t know if Vida or Freddie, with the correspondence at that time. I think maybe that’s still  what Jimmy was doing. And then Bob Stone took over, which is probably part of why Jimmy got locked out of the office – he simply wasn’t considered necessary anymore – another horribly handled, disrespectful event conducted by a small group of world service people. But before that, during my RSR stint- I got really, really busy with my young son,  going to school, working, and having my area and group service commitments. So, there’s  that little bit of time right at that point that i wasn’t entirely aware of or close to the happenings – when “they” gave Jimmy his walking papers. They leased  the Wyandotte space. And Bob Stone was in there. And then I guess they locked out Jimmy. I guess maybe I was just really, really busy with that – oh, and I may have been RSR for Southern California at that time, too. And going to school, yeah, with a young son.

TOM: – That would have been like 83, right? 84? 

DANETTE: – Yeah, that sounds about right. – So, the office is going. I mean, Bob’s got it. – Yep.  He’s got Vida and Freddie. They started getting money in for pre-ordered books. And the whole fiasco with the first  edition and printing, debacle.  

TOM: – It took, what, a year and a half to get the first edition printed after it was approved – 

DANETTE: – I think so. I think so. Yeah. And so, the fellowship was uptight – I think that might  have been what created the East Coast, West Coast – Because the East Coast, they said, well,  hell with them out there. We’re going to start printing our own and did that 

TOM: – Started copying the gray book, I believe, or the approval version.

DANETTE: – I’m not sure which they copied -Maybe the gray  book – the baby blue, It might have been either or both

TOM: – Baby blue didn’t come about until like 88, 89. And before that, all they had was the  approval version of the basic text. 

DANETTE: – I think that’s what maybe they were printing. Yeah.  And eventually there  became the document called the baby blue.  

TOM: – But the period of time that Bob Stone took over and the office started becoming viable,  that’s a humongous transition period for N.A. where my sponsor used to like to say that Bob  Stone took us out of the Stone Age into the modern era. And you played a part in that because  of your bookkeeping skills and your hands-on at the office. Yeah. So, talk to me a little bit about  that period of time where the office became an office. 

DANETTE: – I wish I could get hypnotized. I wish I, because it’s  such a blur. It’s almost as though I, like there was just too much going on and that I didn’t  realize what I had just been thrown into.  

TOM: – The significance.  

DANETTE: – Yeah. And I was enamored with Bob Stone for probably a couple years or so.  He really did advance Narcotics Anonymous. It wasn’t until I started realizing,  you know, the principles that were slashed – yeah. 

TOM: – So was it Bob? Was it Bob that came up with the idea of the news line?

DANETTE: – Probably. He came up with kind of all the ideas. It was really just on his own.  I can’t remember when Ron Hofius started and then he became the editor. Stone gained support for his ideas. He wasn’t acting unilaterally, but those were part of his plan as to  how to really engage a worldwide Fellowship.. Now,  somebody else may have a very clear memory of somebody deciding that, oh, a news line, the  name, you know, the idea would be great. – But I think it was Bob.. And there was what else we were doing. Fellowship report. – I think I was he and I doing  the news line, until Ron got hired.. Bob Stewart came in sometime pretty quickly after me. He was  specifically hired to be H&I project coordinator. That was his whole background, his NA service.  It was what, you know, he loved and was, he already knew people all over the place that were  H&I. And that was his real focus.

TOM: – Bob Stewart OR Bob Stone. 

DANETTE: –  Bob Stone. Had me working with him  to get a lot of these ideas realized – Because he had more planning and talking and stuff to do –  he could have  written everything.  I mean,  he could have. He had the skill set – And he probably worked 15, 18 hours a day.  

TOM: – Every day.  

DANETTE: – Yeah. He had no other life. He had given his life to saving the addict. 

TOM: – So what about the conference? Did the conference ever suggest the office start doing it – like “We want the NA way. We want a concise world service conference report” We call them a conference  agenda report. – We wanted to do all these things. Like the, the things that Jimmy K. was putting  out, we call fellowship reports. Back in 82, I believe it was. But then, then all of a sudden, there  were things like the world directory.  

DANETTE: – You know, the world directory – talk about some outdated stuff. As soon as it got printed, it was probably outdated 

TOM: – But I remember pulling the page out for Ireland when I went to Ireland in 87 or 88 or  something like that- And it was, nothing was correct – Nothing. 

DANETTE: – And that was true even after the internet came around – And there are  reasons. There’s just Human reasons for that- But, before we go to that kind of  specific- — part of what Stone did was to engage a core group of conference participants,  board of director participants in collaboration with him. One of those people could sure have  said, hey, we want to do this. I don’t know. What I do know is that Stone had a plan, a vision laid  out very clearly. This is what will make this grow. So, I’m making an assumption based on my  understanding of him and the circumstances and the other people involved – That assumption  is that he really put this out to people. Hey, this is what I believe we need to do. And they said,  yeah, sounds great – So, in that context, yeah, he came up with the ideas of and, you know, said,  “I want to implement this stuff.” and others said  “Okay, go for it.” Unfortunately they provided very little, if any, oversight. 

TOM: – And he was the one that had to deal with the backlash about the first edition coming out with the changes made in the essay portions of tradition four and nine. 

DANETTE: – Yeah, there’s something about that- The one thing that a friend, Jim, sent me that I was like,  huh, that was kind of interesting. It was a letter, really hard to read handwriting. About the  fourth and the ninth and someone questioning someone else on the board of trustees, I’m  pretty sure, saying, hey, what the hell happened? And this person replying in this letter that we decided and agreed that it did make more sense to make these changes. 

TOM: – Yeah. And they printed it. – And Bob Stone had to deal with the conference. He was no  longer the parliamentarian. He was the office manager. And at the conference when they’re saying, we rescind your right to print, blah, blah, the whole thing was on him. So, what was what was the mood  like at the office when they had to, you know, redo the book? Was that tumultuous? Or was that  just a matter of fact, let’s do this?

DANETTE:NOTE:After this interview, I got information from a person who was involved at that time that Ginni S., the then WSO employee acting with the WSC lit coordinator, took the backlash for the printing error – that it was an honest mistake in providing an old version to the printer and then several people were supposed to verify it simply overlooked it – Ginni was the scapegoat and was no longer employed by WSO shortly after that.

I think it was both. Both? Yes, I think it was both. There was a sense of, oh, my gosh,  what just happened? What did we do, the office? Or what didn’t we do? And oh, this could be  horrible. And then there was, you know, we got all those little printed pieces that we had to go  through all the basic text and paste. They were on those, you know, like these labels that have a  sticky back, it was printed on those papers.  

TOM: – Yeah, I remember those.  

DANETTE: – Yeah. And we cut and pasted them into the books. And then the second edition or  third edition.  

TOM: – So you were still at the office through the fourth edition, maybe?  

DANETTE: – Maybe. Like I said, my time sequence ends. Yeah. I can tell you I haven’t purchased any editions since the fifth edition. I just refuse. I know there are more stories in the sixth, some better stories, but like, I’m just not going to support them anymore. 

TOM: – Yeah, me too. I’m with you. I hear you. So, when Bob Stone is running the office, and  you’ve got the World Service Conference meeting annually, and a literature committee that wants to do stuff like the works how and why, you know, the traditions portion, let’s just put  that off to the side for a minute, and to talk about the steps portion. And remember when the  in 85, I think, or 86, when the works how and why came out, the little white book, they got  voted down at the conference.  

DANETTE: – Wait- wasn’t a full size, right?., Oh, was it green and white? 

TOM: – No, just solid white. 

DANETTE:: Hold on a second – Gotta look for something down here in one of my file cabinets. Huh. The size  of that concept book. Yeah. But it had a spine on it. – And uh, it was the first approval version. If  you’re talking, I can hear you, just looking through some old lit stuff. 

TOM: – Okay. Well, that came out – And at the conference, I just, I just  can’t imagine how Bob Stone could sit there and let them vote down this piece of literature that  they had invested probably a small fortune in production. And then to have all the RSR say, it’s  not good enough. Go back to the drawing board – And it took years again after that to get the  book approved – What was Bob Stone’s perception of the fellowship, the office working with  the fellowship in literature production? 

DANETTE: – I’m just trying to go back and get the cellular memory of that, I  think it was 86. You know, it comes to my mind that Bob was often upset, unhappy. Now, I’m  sure some of that had to do with the fact that he was an untreated codependent and he had almost no life outside of the WSO/WSC.  He never seemed to have any of the internal peace that recovering people  get as a result of practicing spiritual principles. So, there was a general unhappiness there. There was  also quite a bit of arrogance – belief that he really did know what he was doing was for the best. He seemed to struggle with and fight against the idea and question of “why weren’t they just letting him do it?” That’s what I always sensed.  

TOM: – So, like, I think he was the one who suggested that they stop producing the world  directory.  

DANETTE: – Could be  and that certainly made sense, because it was not really very helpful.  

TOM: – Well, it morphed into a phone line directory. 

DANETTE: – You know, I don’t, I don’t even think that’s available anymore, but it was. It was.  Yeah, that was a short lived attempt, I think, project for the same reason, not really the same  reason, but it’s still, yeah, whatever. I mean, I can tell you right now, today, my best, oldest  friend is Lori Dunnnel Wheeler. We call her Purple Lori. She’s been at the World Service Office  for some 37 years. She’s always just been in the technical database department . And she’s always told me that the information she has for the world directory is only as  good as what the groups, areas and regions provide. And we know, realistically, what group really reports  all their changes, even to their area? Well, they’re pretty good about that, but it doesn’t get to  the region. So, it doesn’t get to the world – So it’s, you know, it’s always been fraught with errors.  

So anyways, there was something else you mentioned about Stone and – Well, creating the literature  with the, it works. And his thinking that the conference is not following his  lead – He worked really hard to get a core group of people to accept the idea, what he believed  was the fact that we could not write literature via the fellowship, that we had to have  professional writers. Now, some of those were in the fellowship, but they were professional  writers. Not that cut and paste thing that the basic text developed from. Right. – You’ve got to  agree with that to a certain degree. So, when he created or found that little niche or that little collective mind of people, they then influenced the conference, I suppose. 

TOM: – Well, he had some of that collective mindset in the conference. 

DANETTE: – Yeah. Oh, oh, and this is probably, this is where I was already getting really  disillusioned with him and the whole group think power tripping, – when I realized what was going on then is really, when i knew I wouldn’t be able to last there long, because that  collective mind was able to influence the conference participants, not the fellowship. 

TOM: – The voters. 

DANETTE: – Yes, it was able to influence and ultimately convince them that the motions they  put forward from their regions were never going to be seriously considered because, and this sounds logical, because they just didn’t know how to craft them in a way that would be usable. And I got to tell you, there’s a lot of accuracy to that- We would get motions come in from  regions that were so poorly written, you couldn’t tell what they were trying to say half the time.  And they didn’t have the proper info to put them together. They didn’t have the right phrasing because they  didn’t understand  parliamentary procedure and everything. So instead of really  trying to help them get it to a point, like making the phone call, what is it that your region is  really wanting here? Can we help you, you know, phrase that in a way that would maybe gain  some traction? No. They just made recommendations which many times, effectively defeated a region’s motion and replaced it with what they wanted to get passed. I know some phone calls were made to help regions re-work motions. What i saw more frequently is what i stated above. I remember some type of statement in one of the conference report that told the fellowship or regions that “what we’re going to do to help out is let the boards comment and give their position on regional motions based on their understanding of what you really are trying to say.” And, for whatever reason, that became the norm and was generally accepted – at least I never heard of any strong objection. The RSR trusted the world “servants” to have the Fellowship’s best interests at heart. Pretty soon, every single motion that was presented by the region in that  conference agenda report had a really powerfully compelling statement from the board that  either supported it or didn’t – And that’s the way everybody would vote. 

TOM: – We sent a motion. Remember back when the group readings were laminated and you  could start buying those from the office? Well, we loved those. And yet we also, we still had to  read, hand out the white book to get somebody to read just for today. So, my home group made  a motion that they include a laminated just for today. Right? My thoughts will be on my  recovery, living etc, etc, etc,, you know, that, that just for the day. And our RSR went out there and, and he  didn’t make the motion. So, I’m pissed off. And he says, well, don’t get, don’t get upset because they’re going to do it. – They just like the idea and they didn’t even need to put it to a vote. They’re just going to start doing it. – They’re just going to start including it. 

DANETTE: – And that is, oh, one of my pet peeves about the way people interpret or practice,  or not interpret, the idea of principles before personality. Okay? Because as long as what’s  happening is something that you think is good and we like, well, then it’s good – We’ll just do it.  – We aren’t going to ask any questions. We aren’t going to follow any protocol. And this is  something I have preached to area service. And in the groups, it’s like, just because you know  this person and you think they’d be a good treasurer or whatever, doesn’t mean you should not  go through the questioning process and definitely does not mean that a group conscience should be overlooked. Just because a group, area or region gives trust to their selected representatives does not absolve them of oversight and guidance. It assumes that if the selected “servant” is not sure about what’s going on or doesn’t understand the way something is being handled, that person needs to object until they have a chance to check with their accountable group, area or region

TOM: – Yeah, absolutely.  

DANETTE: – So that was, that was the way around the nation and then further.. I did not know that your group had direct experience with that but i’m not surprised at the way it was handled. 

TOM: – Yeah, well, that was, you know, many motions came from my home group.  

DANETTE: – And that’s how the conference started running.
TOM: – And Bob Stone was then probably on the hunt in the fellowship for an editor or  somebody who could write. And there’s a guy, I can’t think of his name right now, who claims to  have written 90% of it works on why, all of just for today, the coffee table book, all this stuff. 

DANETTE: – Well, I know he didn’t write just for today, the majority of it, because a good  previous WSO colleague of mine put much of it together with others. – I talked about this in our 1st conversation on Tape 1. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there were other  individuals who did kind of the same thing. And this guy maybe did it for some stuff. Maybe he  thinks he did most of it.. 

TOM: – Maybe he did say we were working together. His name escapes me, but he wrote up a  resume. And in the resume is where he’s claiming all of this greatness, you know, like, oh, I’ve  done this, I’ve done that- I can see, you know, if you got the  opportunity to bolster your resume and in any fashion, you probably want to try and do that to get a job.

DANETTE: – It’ll come to you. 

TOM: – But he worked at the office. 

DANETTE: – He went to what? 

TOM: – He worked at the office. 

DANETTE: – Oh, well, some of the names that come to mind are Lee Manchester.

TOM: – That’s it. 

DANETTE: – Okay. Yeah. He’s written and edited a lot of stuff and he probably did work with Ron and others but I wouldn’t say he wrote it. – I mean, he was a participant in putting it together. 

TOM: – And he was very, I wonder what his take is on Bob Stone these days. Is he still around? 

DANETTE: – Sure. He was my roommate for like three or four years. 

TOM: – Wow. 

DANETTE: – We both worked at WSO. 

TOM: – Wow. 

DANETTE: – Yeah, he had a unique personality. Really, really smart guy. And I think he was under Bob’s  influence, as many of us were. 

TOM: – So when you say he wrote quite a bit, does that mean literature or he would write reports  or. 

DANETTE: – He wrote lots of reports. He helped Stu Tooredman craft bylaws and lawsuits and lots of things. I would imagine he sat in on most of the writing groups that either the  literature committee had going or like the resolution group or any of those things. 

TOM: – Oh, he sat in on your group? 

DANETTE: – I’m sure he was there some of the time. Yeah, because we always had somebody  that would take minutes for us. 

TOM: – From the office, yeah. 

DANETTE: – Yeah. Always. All the conference appointed committees did – And,  in a different vein, different personality, Stone hired Ron Hofius, who was an amazing writer. He  got hired for the N.A. Way editor position, but he got a lot of stuff piled on to him after he got there. Yeah, he was amazing. And he served on the resolution group. 

TOM: – He was no longer. 

DANETTE: – Yeah, yeah, he was no longer at WSO. Yeah, this was after his tenure at the office, yeah. 

TOM: – Yeah, I think Ron spoke at our convention in 86 or 87. And Bob Richart, my sponsor, he  was a WSO board of directors. 

DANETTE: – Right. 

TOM: – Tell me, talk to me about that- How did Bob Stone get people on the board, or what was  the process for that? 

DANETTE: – Good question. 

TOM: – There was a board of directors. I think Bob Barrett was on it for like 30 years. But there  was a board of directors before Bob Stone took over, right? 

DANETTE: – Yeah. 

TOM: – Yeah. And because I think Chuck Gates was on it. 

DANETTE: – Yeah. Bob Barrett, and then I don’t, I think they kind of found other people, and  then the board, what’s the word, not acclaimed them, but, you know, approved of them or  accepted them or ratified them. Because, yeah, then Stu Tuderman was there, Steve Bice was there, Chuck Lehman was there. I experienced them as less likely to follow blindly as others did- 

TOM: – What’s the best thing for the fellowship? 

DANETTE: – Yeah. 

TOM: – Bob McDonough. 

DANETTE: – Yep. Those are the names that come to mind – Right. 

TOM: – And how they got on the board was because Bob Stone knew they had expertise. Like my  sponsor, he was a lawyer. Well, he was a lawyer. They needed him. I think he rewrote the  bylaws. 

DANETTE: – Probably. 

TOM: – In 83 or something like that- But the WSO board of directors was basically Bob Stone’s  boss. 

DANETTE: – Yes, and he was taken by surprise when they decided not to renew his contract – And I was blamed for that- And I really had nothing to do with it. 

TOM: – By Bob? 

DANETTE: – Yeah. 

TOM: – By Bob Stone. 

DANETTE: – Yeah. In his book, I think he mentioned it, or he says something about, I didn’t read  it. – A bunch of my close friends read it and they told me “you don’t need to read the crap he wrote about you.” 

TOM: – Was it the trustees or the board or world that didn’t want to renew his contract? 

DANETTE: – I thought it was the trustees until I talked to Jack Bernstein, okay? Because what I  thought happened was that like the first year that I was selected or elected at that time to the  trustees and Chuck Lehman, I think, and Donna Marcus. I thought it was Kim, but she was there  a year before. So, after those new members were voted on,we had our first meeting directly after  

TOM: – That’s Sunday. 

DANETTE: –  I don’t know what day it was 

TOM: – Okay.

DANETTE: – And I was so surprised because I already, everybody knew that Vida and I had called  on Steve Bice and Stu Tuderman on the board of directors to tell him about Sherry, who was  Stone’s assistant, that she was working while loaded. 

TOM: – JAWS music plays here LOL 

DANETTE: – Yeah. So, they came in one day, saw her and told Bob, “you to get rid of her.” And  he blamed it on me and Vida, screaming that we needed to work our own program better blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, after that, the Rehmar Rosen clan  would not even look at me when they came to the office. They didn’t want to know anything. They just took his word that I had screwed him over, that i was jealous, whatever and that I could not be trusted and blah,  blah, blah. Who knows? Anyways. 

TOM: – Anyways. 

DANETTE: – So that board of trustee meeting, I was thinking i would bring up those actions and behavior. And before I had  a chance to even say anything, Chuck Lehman jumped right in “we have to tell the board of directors that  Bob has to go”. That’s what I thought. – Now, Jack Bernstein told me that wasn’t quite correct.  (see taped interview with Jack Bernstein). 

TOM: – So he was the chair of the trustees at that point. 

DANETTE: – Jack was, yes  He recalls that he got a call to put the related item on the agenda. NOTE:  my memory is deleted here – please read the transcript interview with Jack B. on the website for his better memory of it)

TOM: – So, when you talk about Bob Rehmar and the cold shoulder, when Bob Stone wanted to  cast aspersions upon you, do you suppose that Bob Rehmar was instrumental in getting Bob  Stone’s job at the office? Or was it the conference that was infatuated with Bob Stone? Or how  did that go down? 

DANETTE: – The conference was infatuated with him. 

TOM: – Yeah. 

DANETTE: – And Rehmar was  influenced with power.             

ABRUPT ENDING  – GO TO TAPE 3 FOR MORE